Letterboxing USA - Yahoo Groups Archive

membership, money, books, and press

11 messages in this thread | Started on 2004-09-09

membership, money, books, and press

From: Randy Hall (randy@mapsurfer.com) | Date: 2004-09-09 21:24:17 UTC-04:00

As long as I own the domain letterboxing.org, it will not likely resolve
to a site that charges fees to view content, or requires membership to view
my faq or clues. The compromise for users of the site wishing to protect
their clues in some way is for them to put them on their own site,
provide whatever security they wish, and post a link to their clues or
site. Or, perhaps one of the sites that competes with letterboxing.org
will add this feature. (OTOH, I may not always own letterboxing.org, or,
it may not always live there).

While some reasoned and intelligent commentary was presented in favor of
doing this, the co-founders felt very strongly about openness, and it would
be a disservice to the memory of those no longer with us to violate
that trust now. That's not to say I can't change my mind on anything and
am bound by ghosts and tradition, but this will be a tough sell. Susan
has also written elegantly on the subject, and I imagine as long as she
is involved, it will be a tough sell for her as well. (The fact is that
I'm very respectful of ghosts and tradition, and lbna has traditionally
been open). As for specific reasons, others have written them already,
and it just feels better this way. (of course, webmasters are supposed
to "vote" on these things, so lobby your favorite one ...)

To respond to a specific comment (to paraphrase) - "how is this different
from requiring membership to the yahoogroup?" -- the answer is that the
status quo is actually the same. To wit -- membership is required in this
yahoogroup to _post_, but not _view_ messages. This was added in an attempt
to control spam only (try it for yourself, log out of yahoo, and go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/letterbox-usa/messages). The lbna site
presently uses the same model. Other letterboxing-related resources, of
course, work differently, tho it is not difficult for the prospective
ne'er-do-well to penetrate their defenses.

As for writing books, I wrote one. You can make me rich by going to
Amazon and buying a copy (try it for yourself at
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0762727942/mapsurfercom-20), and
then I'll give Ryan a loan :-) I did this because I thought it was cool.
Had I turned down this commission, someone else would have done it, and
it seemed better that an insider rather than a professional writer do it.
The world hasn't ended. Those who feel it has have adapted or retired.
It will be interesting to see who gets the Wiley commission.

As for the press, the same things were said 4 years ago, and many
bemoaned what would happen. Some people "in the club" generally want
control of "whose in the club next" after they've got in (and as an
owner of a gmail account, I guess I can relate to this (and the brilliant
marketing :-)). My guess is that had a conspiracy of silence been
successful, most of the posters I was reading would not be here. I guess
that is irrelevant, tho, as such a conspiracy is untenable, IMO. Its
better, IMO, to talk to the media and say what _you_ want rather than
trusting the next person they find to do the same. (OTOH, one could
easily counter the last two paragraphs by quoting JC Melloncamp --
"callin' it your job ol' hosse sure don't make it right" -- but I think
it depends what the job is ...)

(The truth is, regarding membership and the press -- for a closed system to
have worked, it would have had to start off that way. It is too late now.
But, unlike Dartmoor, we faced a formidable geography problem, so it would
have never gotten off the ground on a national scale without the internet.
(And a couple of times, well into the game, it looked moribund, and the
press _saved_ it). Thus we have the baggage of openness. And also, even
Dartmoor's more closed culture was compromised, that is how we are _all_
here -- media and openness).

As for commercialism, I'm pretty moderate in that regard. Other well-
respected sites are commercial, and tho there have been some complaints,
the world hasn't ended, and people find these sites valuable. As someone
involved in amateur sports, hustling for sponsorship is a way of life, tho
the issue is divisive there also. It would be nice if everything in the
world were free, and people could do what they want (the proverbial
brotherhood of man), but at the end of the day, you get what you pay for,
and you can't count on altruism to pay the bills forever. Even "public
television" has sponsors, and even the writers of commercial-free open
source software are paid in the currency of prestige, resume bullets,
and consulting commissions.

I will say that I abhor banner ads, but that some sort of funding for lbna
would be a good thing, IMHO, tho the issue will always remain divisive. I
will also say that I understand and respect the anti-commercialism attitude,
but have a "wouldn't that be nice, moderate, response to that". All that
said, the stark reality is that money is (and has been) coming into
this space; it is just a question of where it ends up and how it is spent --
other sites that embrace commercialism may get stronger, and allow their
operators to spend 40 hours a week or more making them even stronger, and
so on ...). OTOH, perhaps at the end of the day, lbna will maintain its
present state of minimal commercialism and commercial sites will wither.
Or, perhaps other sites will grow strong like geocaching.com, and those
using lbna will remain happy with the status quo. IMO, there is no right
or wrong with the above, except for a closed mind (which is why I say
"tough sell" rather than "no chance" at the end of the day on some things).

I'm sure some will prolly dislike me for the above attitude (and some already
do), but at least I'm honest :-)

Well, I haven't written here in a while, so I'm entitled to some verbosity.
I hope people take my comments as thoughtful and just my $0.02, rather
than flames they are not intended to be, and I encourage thoughtful commentary
on these, and other issues.

Cheers
Randy
List Manager
LbNA co-founder

Re: membership, money, books, and press

From: nattybumppolbna (nattybumppolbna@yahoo.com) | Date: 2004-09-10 01:43:42 UTC
Bravo.

- Nat

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, Randy Hall
wrote:
>
> As long as I own the domain letterboxing.org, it will not likely
resolve
> to a site that charges fees to view content, or requires
membership to view
> my faq or clues. The compromise for users of the site wishing
to protect
> their clues in some way is for them to put them on their own
site,
> provide whatever security they wish, and post a link to their
clues or
> site. Or, perhaps one of the sites that competes with
letterboxing.org
> will add this feature. (OTOH, I may not always own
letterboxing.org, or,
> it may not always live there).
>
> While some reasoned and intelligent commentary was
presented in favor of
> doing this, the co-founders felt very strongly about openness,
and it would
> be a disservice to the memory of those no longer with us to
violate
> that trust now. That's not to say I can't change my mind on
anything and
> am bound by ghosts and tradition, but this will be a tough sell.
Susan
> has also written elegantly on the subject, and I imagine as
long as she
> is involved, it will be a tough sell for her as well. (The fact is
that
> I'm very respectful of ghosts and tradition, and lbna has
traditionally
> been open). As for specific reasons, others have written them
already,
> and it just feels better this way. (of course, webmasters are
supposed
> to "vote" on these things, so lobby your favorite one ...)
>
> To respond to a specific comment (to paraphrase) - "how is
this different
> from requiring membership to the yahoogroup?" -- the answer
is that the
> status quo is actually the same. To wit -- membership is
required in this
> yahoogroup to _post_, but not _view_ messages. This was
added in an attempt
> to control spam only (try it for yourself, log out of yahoo, and go
to
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/letterbox-usa/messages). The
lbna site
> presently uses the same model. Other letterboxing-related
resources, of
> course, work differently, tho it is not difficult for the prospective
> ne'er-do-well to penetrate their defenses.
>
> As for writing books, I wrote one. You can make me rich by
going to
> Amazon and buying a copy (try it for yourself at
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0762727942/mapsurf
ercom-20), and
> then I'll give Ryan a loan :-) I did this because I thought it was
cool.
> Had I turned down this commission, someone else would
have done it, and
> it seemed better that an insider rather than a professional
writer do it.
> The world hasn't ended. Those who feel it has have adapted
or retired.
> It will be interesting to see who gets the Wiley commission.
>
> As for the press, the same things were said 4 years ago, and
many
> bemoaned what would happen. Some people "in the club"
generally want
> control of "whose in the club next" after they've got in (and as an
> owner of a gmail account, I guess I can relate to this (and the
brilliant
> marketing :-)). My guess is that had a conspiracy of silence
been
> successful, most of the posters I was reading would not be
here. I guess
> that is irrelevant, tho, as such a conspiracy is untenable, IMO.
Its
> better, IMO, to talk to the media and say what _you_ want rather
than
> trusting the next person they find to do the same. (OTOH, one
could
> easily counter the last two paragraphs by quoting JC
Melloncamp --
> "callin' it your job ol' hosse sure don't make it right" -- but I think
> it depends what the job is ...)
>
> (The truth is, regarding membership and the press -- for a
closed system to
> have worked, it would have had to start off that way. It is too
late now.
> But, unlike Dartmoor, we faced a formidable geography
problem, so it would
> have never gotten off the ground on a national scale without the
internet.
> (And a couple of times, well into the game, it looked moribund,
and the
> press _saved_ it). Thus we have the baggage of openness.
And also, even
> Dartmoor's more closed culture was compromised, that is
how we are _all_
> here -- media and openness).
>
> As for commercialism, I'm pretty moderate in that regard.
Other well-
> respected sites are commercial, and tho there have been
some complaints,
> the world hasn't ended, and people find these sites valuable.
As someone
> involved in amateur sports, hustling for sponsorship is a way
of life, tho
> the issue is divisive there also. It would be nice if everything in
the
> world were free, and people could do what they want (the
proverbial
> brotherhood of man), but at the end of the day, you get what you
pay for,
> and you can't count on altruism to pay the bills forever. Even
"public
> television" has sponsors, and even the writers of
commercial-free open
> source software are paid in the currency of prestige, resume
bullets,
> and consulting commissions.
>
> I will say that I abhor banner ads, but that some sort of funding
for lbna
> would be a good thing, IMHO, tho the issue will always remain
divisive. I
> will also say that I understand and respect the
anti-commercialism attitude,
> but have a "wouldn't that be nice, moderate, response to that".
All that
> said, the stark reality is that money is (and has been) coming
into
> this space; it is just a question of where it ends up and how it
is spent --
> other sites that embrace commercialism may get stronger,
and allow their
> operators to spend 40 hours a week or more making them
even stronger, and
> so on ...). OTOH, perhaps at the end of the day, lbna will
maintain its
> present state of minimal commercialism and commercial
sites will wither.
> Or, perhaps other sites will grow strong like geocaching.com,
and those
> using lbna will remain happy with the status quo. IMO, there is
no right
> or wrong with the above, except for a closed mind (which is
why I say
> "tough sell" rather than "no chance" at the end of the day on
some things).
>
> I'm sure some will prolly dislike me for the above attitude (and
some already
> do), but at least I'm honest :-)
>
> Well, I haven't written here in a while, so I'm entitled to some
verbosity.
> I hope people take my comments as thoughtful and just my
$0.02, rather
> than flames they are not intended to be, and I encourage
thoughtful commentary
> on these, and other issues.
>
> Cheers
> Randy
> List Manager
> LbNA co-founder


Re: membership, money, books, and press

From: rospa10 (wilmes2@mindspring.com) | Date: 2004-09-10 01:57:43 UTC
Yes, double bravo!
Susan, Ryan and others have spoken elegantly and eloquently.
Perhaps it is time for all to take a deep breath (all you yoga
practioners,or former members of those good old birthing class
((cleansing breath..cleansing breath))
Let us focus on this wonderful hobby, the gorgeous places it leads
us to.
Life is too da**ed short as it is.
Catlover/teacher/gardener


Re: [LbNA] membership, money, books, and press

From: Hikers_n_ Hounds (hikers_n_hounds@yahoo.com) | Date: 2004-09-10 03:34:43 UTC-07:00
Well that setttles it for me. Thanks for weighing in Randy.

Randy Hall wrote:
As long as I own the domain letterboxing.org, it will not likely resolve
to a site that charges fees to view content, or requires membership to view
my faq or clues. The compromise for users of the site wishing to protect
their clues in some way is for them to put them on their own site,
provide whatever security they wish, and post a link to their clues or
site. Or, perhaps one of the sites that competes with letterboxing.org
will add this feature. (OTOH, I may not always own letterboxing.org, or,
it may not always live there).

While some reasoned and intelligent commentary was presented in favor of
doing this, the co-founders felt very strongly about openness, and it would
be a disservice to the memory of those no longer with us to violate
that trust now. That's not to say I can't change my mind on anything and
am bound by ghosts and tradition, but this will be a tough sell. Susan
has also written elegantly on the subject, and I imagine as long as she
is involved, it will be a tough sell for her as well. (The fact is that
I'm very respectful of ghosts and tradition, and lbna has traditionally
been open). As for specific reasons, others have written them already,
and it just feels better this way. (of course, webmasters are supposed
to "vote" on these things, so lobby your favorite one ...)

To respond to a specific comment (to paraphrase) - "how is this different
from requiring membership to the yahoogroup?" -- the answer is that the
status quo is actually the same. To wit -- membership is required in this
yahoogroup to _post_, but not _view_ messages. This was added in an attempt
to control spam only (try it for yourself, log out of yahoo, and go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/letterbox-usa/messages). The lbna site
presently uses the same model. Other letterboxing-related resources, of
course, work differently, tho it is not difficult for the prospective
ne'er-do-well to penetrate their defenses.

As for writing books, I wrote one. You can make me rich by going to
Amazon and buying a copy (try it for yourself at
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0762727942/mapsurfercom-20), and
then I'll give Ryan a loan :-) I did this because I thought it was cool.
Had I turned down this commission, someone else would have done it, and
it seemed better that an insider rather than a professional writer do it.
The world hasn't ended. Those who feel it has have adapted or retired.
It will be interesting to see who gets the Wiley commission.

As for the press, the same things were said 4 years ago, and many
bemoaned what would happen. Some people "in the club" generally want
control of "whose in the club next" after they've got in (and as an
owner of a gmail account, I guess I can relate to this (and the brilliant
marketing :-)). My guess is that had a conspiracy of silence been
successful, most of the posters I was reading would not be here. I guess
that is irrelevant, tho, as such a conspiracy is untenable, IMO. Its
better, IMO, to talk to the media and say what _you_ want rather than
trusting the next person they find to do the same. (OTOH, one could
easily counter the last two paragraphs by quoting JC Melloncamp --
"callin' it your job ol' hosse sure don't make it right" -- but I think
it depends what the job is ...)

(The truth is, regarding membership and the press -- for a closed system to
have worked, it would have had to start off that way. It is too late now.
But, unlike Dartmoor, we faced a formidable geography problem, so it would
have never gotten off the ground on a national scale without the internet.
(And a couple of times, well into the game, it looked moribund, and the
press _saved_ it). Thus we have the baggage of openness. And also, even
Dartmoor's more closed culture was compromised, that is how we are _all_
here -- media and openness).

As for commercialism, I'm pretty moderate in that regard. Other well-
respected sites are commercial, and tho there have been some complaints,
the world hasn't ended, and people find these sites valuable. As someone
involved in amateur sports, hustling for sponsorship is a way of life, tho
the issue is divisive there also. It would be nice if everything in the
world were free, and people could do what they want (the proverbial
brotherhood of man), but at the end of the day, you get what you pay for,
and you can't count on altruism to pay the bills forever. Even "public
television" has sponsors, and even the writers of commercial-free open
source software are paid in the currency of prestige, resume bullets,
and consulting commissions.

I will say that I abhor banner ads, but that some sort of funding for lbna
would be a good thing, IMHO, tho the issue will always remain divisive. I
will also say that I understand and respect the anti-commercialism attitude,
but have a "wouldn't that be nice, moderate, response to that". All that
said, the stark reality is that money is (and has been) coming into
this space; it is just a question of where it ends up and how it is spent --
other sites that embrace commercialism may get stronger, and allow their
operators to spend 40 hours a week or more making them even stronger, and
so on ...). OTOH, perhaps at the end of the day, lbna will maintain its
present state of minimal commercialism and commercial sites will wither.
Or, perhaps other sites will grow strong like geocaching.com, and those
using lbna will remain happy with the status quo. IMO, there is no right
or wrong with the above, except for a closed mind (which is why I say
"tough sell" rather than "no chance" at the end of the day on some things).

I'm sure some will prolly dislike me for the above attitude (and some already
do), but at least I'm honest :-)

Well, I haven't written here in a while, so I'm entitled to some verbosity.
I hope people take my comments as thoughtful and just my $0.02, rather
than flames they are not intended to be, and I encourage thoughtful commentary
on these, and other issues.

Cheers
Randy
List Manager
LbNA co-founder

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Re: [LbNA] Re: membership, money, books, and press

From: Lori Doobie (dragonladytcb@yahoo.com) | Date: 2004-09-10 05:52:00 UTC-07:00
....in through the nose out through the mouth.........Thank you Randy!!

rospa10 wrote:Yes, double bravo!
Susan, Ryan and others have spoken elegantly and eloquently.
Perhaps it is time for all to take a deep breath (all you yoga
practioners,or former members of those good old birthing class
((cleansing breath..cleansing breath))
Let us focus on this wonderful hobby, the gorgeous places it leads
us to.
Life is too da**ed short as it is.
Catlover/teacher/gardener


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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Re: membership, money, books, and press

From: psycomommy2003 (ktborrelli@hotmail.com) | Date: 2004-09-11 16:16:42 UTC
It wouldn't be a Randy post w/o the prolly.
Psychomom



--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, Randy Hall wrote:
>
> I'm sure some will prolly dislike me for the above attitude (and
some already
> do), but at least I'm honest :-)
>
> Well, I haven't written here in a while, so I'm entitled to some
verbosity.
> I hope people take my comments as thoughtful and just my $0.02,
rather
> than flames they are not intended to be, and I encourage thoughtful
commentary
> on these, and other issues.
>
> Cheers
> Randy
> List Manager
> LbNA co-founder


Re: [LbNA] membership, money, books, and press

From: Anna Lisa Yoder (annalisa@fast.net) | Date: 2004-09-15 14:25:33 UTC-04:00
I've been away, and so didn't respond to capscott's (or someone's) wondering about why I suggested the LbNA membership poll was a moot point. Sorry about that....I don't know, maybe it's not; I only said that because of Randy Hall's response--which I do respect as he is the owner of the site. I appreciated hearing his well-written response. I admit I'm kinda clueless about site owners and list owners, etc. I tend to forget there are real live people, property owners, with real opinions and liabilities behind these things! Very sorry, Randy and the rest! As an artist, I should know better. It sounded as if he is not open to the membership option at this time, so I guess I assumed it didn't make sense to vote about it. But if others think there is still reason to do so for future reference, ok. Is the poll still happening? I also was not aware of the .org and .com difference. Is it true that if we required passwords (but no money) to access clues on the LbNA site, it would need to become a .com entity rather than .org ? I'm not clear on that. I still have to respectfully disagree with those who say it would keep people out. Unless it's people who have 5 minutes initially to spend surfing on the website rather than those with a half-hour who decide to sign up. Having the majority of clues available only online keeps people out in the first place, since there are those without access or knowledge of the computer. That doesn't seem to be bothering us. I sure don't want to beat a dead horse, but I do like to point out inconsistencies and oft-missed details! --lunaryakketyact


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: [LbNA] membership, money, books, and press

From: Anna Lisa Yoder (annalisa@fast.net) | Date: 2004-09-15 14:33:51 UTC-04:00
Oops, when I said "capscott" in my message a couple minutes ago, I meant "CAPscott" -sorry, I couldn't find your actual trail-name. --lunaryakketyact

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: [LbNA] membership, money, books, and press

From: rscarpen (letterboxing@atlasquest.com) | Date: 2004-09-15 22:24:31 UTC
> Is it true that if we required passwords (but no money) to access
> clues on the LbNA site, it would need to become a .com entity
> rather than .org ? I'm not clear on that.

There is absolutely nothing preventing a person or organization from
buying one rather than the other. Non-profits can buy .com (in fact,
many do because so many people write .com out of sheer habit) any
many for-profit companies buy .org (so someone can't swipe up a
domain name like microsoft.org--which Microsoft would probably not
like to see happening).

For Atlas Quest, I bought .com, .net, AND .org--just because I
could. *shrug* I only use .com because that's what most people type
out of habit.

Okay, raise your hands--how often, when you were new to letterboxing,
did you try typing 'letterboxing.com' and think, "What the heck?!"

Please don't be fooled into thinking there's a distinction
between .com and .org. There's not. Anyone can buy either of them
as they so choose--there's nothing to enforce that a .org domain is
non-profit, and there's nothing to enforce that a .com is truely
commerical.

(As a side note, that's NOT the case for .edu, .gov, and .us -- as
well as others, but those are the main ones that ARE enforced.)

Happy trails!

-- Ryan


Re: [LbNA] membership, money, books, and press

From: Judy B (sowbiz@yahoo.com) | Date: 2004-09-15 22:31:27 UTC
Yeah, but for a while I bet the .org kept the site "hidden". Smart
move.

Judy B
Fairfax VA
sewsowbizzy


> Okay, raise your hands--how often, when you were new to
letterboxing,
> did you try typing 'letterboxing.com' and think, "What the heck?!"

> -- Ryan


Re: [LbNA] membership, money, books, and press

From: Hikers_n_ Hounds (hikers_n_hounds@yahoo.com) | Date: 2004-09-15 16:13:58 UTC-07:00
Ryan is absolutely right. I made the comment about
charging money to join would change us from a .org to
a .com. What I implied was, we are a volunteer, free
of charge community. Charging would make us something
else. Traditionally in the early days of the internet,
.org's were mostly non-profit and .com's for profit.
But things have changed and you can't assume a .org
site in a non-profit one. So I was using an analogy,
metaphor? Something like that.

Irene@iamalwayssodamnconfused.org
A not so profitable for profit dot org

--- rscarpen wrote:

> > Is it true that if we required passwords (but no
> money) to access
> > clues on the LbNA site, it would need to become a
> .com entity
> > rather than .org ? I'm not clear on that.
>
> There is absolutely nothing preventing a person or
> organization from
> buying one rather than the other. Non-profits can
> buy .com (in fact,
> many do because so many people write .com out of
> sheer habit) any
> many for-profit companies buy .org (so someone can't
> swipe up a
> domain name like microsoft.org--which Microsoft
> would probably not
> like to see happening).
>
> For Atlas Quest, I bought .com, .net, AND .org--just
> because I
> could. *shrug* I only use .com because that's what
> most people type
> out of habit.
>
> Okay, raise your hands--how often, when you were new
> to letterboxing,
> did you try typing 'letterboxing.com' and think,
> "What the heck?!"
>
> Please don't be fooled into thinking there's a
> distinction
> between .com and .org. There's not. Anyone can buy
> either of them
> as they so choose--there's nothing to enforce that a
> .org domain is
> non-profit, and there's nothing to enforce that a
> .com is truely
> commerical.
>
> (As a side note, that's NOT the case for .edu, .gov,
> and .us -- as
> well as others, but those are the main ones that ARE
> enforced.)
>
> Happy trails!
>
> -- Ryan
>
>




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